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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>lang team procedure meeting · t-lang/meta · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/index.html">t-lang/meta</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html">lang team procedure meeting</a></h3>

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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213841926" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213841926">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>So <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> regarding scheduling a design meeting to discuss lang team procedure -- I think a good idea is for us to write up a specific proposal first</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842069" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842069">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>in particular I wanted to maybe find a time for you, me, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span>, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="204346">@Ashley Mannix</span> to chat about consolidating the various procedures</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842148" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842148">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>or maybe it's better to just start by sketching things out</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842195" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842195">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm reminded, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span>, of the various rustbot changes we were contemplating to support MCPs, as well</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842268" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842268">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think they're all mostly waiting on specs (or at least first drafts)</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842341" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842341">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>One thing I was thinking <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> after our conversation was that delineating what sorts of decisions want "seconding" vs "full FCP" makes sense, and I was wondering if it is ultimately not correlated with <em>controversy</em> per se (though that may be a factor) but also <em>irreversibility</em>. In particular, I think that part of the problem with e.g. the rename from <code>src/libstd</code> to <code>src/library</code> or whatever that made it controversial was that while we can <em>technically</em> reverse it, we can't really</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213842392" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213842392">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>seconding just doesn't give as much "weight" as full check off</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848083" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848083">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Just saw this thread, after seeing the scheduling thread.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848152" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848152">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I do agree that the fundamental factor for "second and no objections" vs "consensus and no objections" is reversibility.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848182" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848182">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>Closing an issue is trivially reversed, and the only issue is that people may have lost interest.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848194" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848194">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>Stabilizing something isn't reversible.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848210" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848210">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Postpone is reversible.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848348" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848348">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>"Chartering a project group" is socially painful to reverse, but not irreparable. It's effectively "we're receptive to this, so we think you wouldn't be wasting your time to put a proposal together".</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213848801" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213848801">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think we'd want to -- in general -- reverse direction on a project group. We might, though, want to say that given the exploration done of the problem/solution space, we do not think there is a pressing need anymore and/or solutions are too hard/expensive to design.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213849356" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213849356">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>This I think is the question -- <em>how reversible is it</em>. I still kind of want agreeing to a project group to represent a sort of commitment, though I wonder if the commitment should come a <em>bit</em> later. i.e., give people a bit of time to explore before we make a harder choice.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213849370" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213849370">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am reminded of stage0 / stage1 in TC39</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213849384" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213849384">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the bar for stage0 might be quite low, and having <em>some</em> interesting lang team member who is willing to second may suffice</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213851988" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213851988">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's fair.</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852051" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852051">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was always imagining the <em>initial</em> approval as "yeah, we'd like to see that".</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852066" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852066">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>So a two-phase approval where the first phase is just a second, perhaps?</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852654" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852654">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will say this</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852672" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852672">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the experience of "I have an idea!" where the immediate next step is "I create a charter than then sits in FCP limbo for a month" is not great</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852781" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852781">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd rather have it be "any lang team member can second and charter a group that is in an experimental state; we create a stream and people can start chatting", but I do worry about somebody running off and pursuing an idea others are really not keen on, and this setting up for some kind of problem</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213852796" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213852796">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe there's some kind of in-between, not sure</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213858411" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213858411">(Oct 19 2020 at 23:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think I'd be surprised with that being the case with current lang team at least :)</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213858504" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213858504">(Oct 19 2020 at 23:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., at least from my perspective it feels like there is normally agreement on "whether" in some sense, though of course not necessarily "how"</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213858551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213858551">(Oct 19 2020 at 23:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>And in any case, there'd be roughly 12ish runaway projects at once presuming we limit to 2-3 per member or so</p>



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<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang%20team%20procedure%20meeting/near/213969054" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/196563-t-lang/meta/topic/lang.20team.20procedure.20meeting.html#213969054">(Oct 20 2020 at 19:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, I do think getting agreement on "whether" is important</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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